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Post by Yoris on Apr 20, 2019 15:14:20 GMT -7
Edit: This thread is kind of like a notebook for me as I work on recreating some recipes (as well as discovering new recipes in the process). Some of it may come across as a bit disjointed, but when I figure things out hopefully I'll post something more concise, and to the point. Okay, so my sister showed me an awesome, and very simple French bread recipe when I was younger. I don't remember it (although I've tried to replicate it). However, I've tracked down a recipe that is possibly the source of her knowledge (although I could be wrong, and I have yet to try it): 1 packet active dry yeast
1¾ cups warm water
2 teaspoons salt
5¼ to 5½ cups sifted flour
1 egg white mixed with 1 tablespoon cold water (glaze) Source: PAIN ORDINAIRE (CRUSTY FRENCH BREAD), from The New Doubleday Cookbook, by Jean Anderson & Elaine Hanna, 1985, p. 685 (the original recipe that I may be talking about, if it was derived from this source, was in an earlier version of the book, which was from one of the two volumes; this new version is both volumes in one book) Recipe ingredient lists aren't copyrightable (so, that's why I'm posting that here). Directions are copyrightable, however (at least, the specific wording is). It has rising instructions and lots of stuff, but that's not what's important to me here. We didn't actually make French bread with it (very often). I mostly used it for pizza crust. The directions mention baking at 425° F. for 30 minutes and then at 350° for 20 to 25 minutes (there's a host of other instructions). However, we didn't do anything like that for the pizza crust. It didn't take that long to cook, and it didn't require special treatment. We probably used the same cookbook's pizza crust baking instructions. I have tried that pizza crust recipe, too, and it was good, but I preferred my sister's, as it was faster/easier for a similar and maybe preferable result (but remember, I don't know if this French bread recipe was the recipe that inspired her there). I seem to remember that there was oil in the dough, but maybe that's wrong. There's none in this French bread recipe (except it does say to roll the dough around in an oiled pan or bowl or something, when setting to rise). We didn't let it rise very much, if at all, for pizza crust, and it worked. I guess I'll have to keep figuring out a good recipe myself (or just call up my sister). I also seem to remember that the recipe title just said 'French Bread', and this doesn't (I seem to have a memory of seeing it, but it could be a false memory). I don't think we glazed it as pizza crust. I seem to remember using six cups of flour.
[HASH]recipe [HASH]bread [HASH]pizza [HASH]pizzacrust [HASH]crust |
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Post by Yoris on Apr 20, 2019 21:41:24 GMT -7
Here is the ingredient list for the pizza dough from the same source (PIZZA->PIZZA DOUGH, from The New Doubleday Cookbook, by Jean Anderson & Elaine Hanna, 1985, p. 688): ¼ cup warm water
1 packet active dry yeast
4¼ cups sifted flour
1 teaspoon salt
1 teaspoon sugar
1¼ cups lukewarm water
2 tablespoons olive or other cooking oil Rising time: 1 hour Bake uncovered for 20 to 25 minutes on 450° F. (That's with the sauce and toppings; it has ingredients and directions for those, too). I think the recipe I'm trying to recover also used two tablespoons of oil. I used the same (or a very similar) recipe to make bread rolls in my twenties, I believe.
[HASH]pizza [HASH]pizzadough [HASH]pizzacrust [HASH]recipe |
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Post by Yoris on Apr 20, 2019 22:58:13 GMT -7
I found a derivative bread recipe of a French bread recipe that I believe was the one I used. Using that, I can imagine that it's something like this: 6 cups Gold Meadow white flour
1 packet of yeast (started in lukewarm filtered water with one or two tablespoons of sugar
2 tablespoons of extra virgin olive oil
2 teaspoons salt
gradually add water until you can knead comfortably (add more if it's too difficult); I was really hoping it would give me a precise amount of water, but oh well
Bake on 350° F. for about 30 minutes. Rising is optional. Anyway, that might not be the right recipe. It's a guess based on a hint from an expanded recipe that used more of each ingredient and a little pearl barley flour, too. |
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Post by Yoris on Apr 23, 2019 20:29:48 GMT -7
I just tried this biscuit recipe that I made up (using cues from other stuff in this thread; I split the recipe in half so I wouldn't have to make so much, which turned out to make it much easier; I kept track of exactly how much of everything I used so I can modify it accordingly next time):
3 cups flour (Pillsbury bleached all-purpose white flour)
2 teaspoon baking soda
1 teaspoon Morton canning salt
1 tablespoon extra virgin olive oil
2 cups of cold filtered water
Mix the dry ingredients, add the oil, add the water, and mix thoroughly. Bake for at least 30 minutes on 350° F. (pre-heat first) on a pan oiled with a liberal amount of extra virgin olive oil.
Okay, I should note that the aforementioned French bread recipe that I had been trying to recover worked well as a biscuit recipe if you used baking powder or baking soda instead of yeast. Since biscuits are so much easier to make, I figured I'd be able to figure it out faster if I made biscuits instead of bread.
So, my analysis is that this is not the same recipe that I once used for biscuits, but it's still good. The biscuits aren't pretty (that's probably because I used baking soda instead of baking powder—biscuits with baking soda tend to have rough edges, but they do taste about* the same as biscuits with baking powder), but the taste is quite good with butter and jam (and decent without), especially after it's been cooling for several minutes. The texture is chewy. Although the biscuits didn't rise much at all, they did bubble well inside, and they weren't dense. It was rather moist inside (but not dense and soggy).
Anyway, chewiness is a quality I wanted to know how to do on purpose; so, it's cool to have found a way to make chewy biscuits. Although French bread is supposed to be chewy, the French bread recipe (and the analogous biscuit recipe) I'm seeking was not particularly chewy (although perhaps a touch chewier than some breads). If I can increase the chewiness, and bubbliness, I might be able to reinvent the Navajo fry bread that someone I knew made once, for Navajo tacos (which fry bread was totally awesome, as were the full Navajo tacos); I know his recipe had a lot more salt than this, though (and it had very few ingredients).
Anyway, while making it, I noticed right away that I used too much water (for my original recipe); I think maybe 1½ or 1¾ cups water might be the right amount. However, the dough looked and felt a whole lot more like my original dough than anything else I've tried in recent years; as a biscuit recipe, it's supposed to be easy to stir, and it was somewhat easier to stir than the original recipe. With the original recipe I think I actually added more water when making biscuits than I did when I made bread (so, it wasn't the exact same recipe, I suppose). These biscuits are a lot flatter than my original recipe. So, cutting them in half is interesting.
You can put the uncooked biscuits pretty close together on the pan, as they don't rise or expand very much when they cook. The same was not true for the original recipe.
Anyway, I definitely think using less oil and/or lower heat was the right idea.
The original biscuits worked very well for biscuits and gravy (they weren't flaky biscuits, though; they were crumbly-ish). This new recipe is probably too chewy for that. Both recipes work well with butter and jam.
*Although biscuits taste about the same whether you use baking powder or baking soda, using baking soda can add an extra baking soda-ish taste. I didn't taste that in this new recipe, though (which is miraculous). One way to counteract that where it's a problem is to add brown sugar.
[HASH]biscuit [HASH]bakingsoda [HASH]brownsugar [HASH]recipe
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Post by Yoris on Apr 25, 2019 17:34:47 GMT -7
I tried the following experiment, today:
3 cups whole wheat flour (I'm not sure what brand)
2 teaspoon baking soda
1 teaspoon Morton canning salt
1 tablespoon extra virgin olive oil
1½ cups of cold filtered water
Mix the dry ingredients, add the oil, add the water, and mix thoroughly. Bake for at least 30 to 40 minutes on 350° F. (pre-heat first) on a pan oiled with extra virgin olive oil.
Well, I baked it for 30 minutes and then cut a piece in half. It still looked sort of wet inside; so, I cooked it another ten minutes. It still looked wet inside. It probably would have been fine at thirty minutes, though, as the wet look seems to be a quality that dissipates quickly while it cools.
Anyway, this was not chewy at all, nor was it crumbly. It had a bread-like texture. It still didn't rise much. It didn't bubble inside as much, but it looked bread-like inside. We're out of butter (so, I didn't get to try it buttered with jam, but I imagine it would taste good like that).
My original baking powder biscuit recipe (which didn't actually come from that French bread recipe, but came from my mom—although I think it did resemble that French bread recipe) produced biscuits that were extremely good buttered with raspberry jam and eaten with milk. I know this doesn't use baking powder, but yeah, I'm trying to re-create that, as well as the pizza crust recipe (as well as a bread roll recipe that is quite similar). Well, I'm also trying to make improvements on the original in the process of doing that.
So, upon making the dough, I noticed that I apparently used less water than in my original recipe (however, this is whole wheat; so, it probably takes more water than white flour, but I believe I made whole wheat biscuits before, too, with thinner dough). The original recipe could be stirred with a big spoon the whole time (while this was a step closer to bread dough in texture). Anyway, the dough was almost thin enough, but not quite there. The baking soda taste was more apparent than in the white biscuit recipe (had I added a little brown sugar, it probably would have taken care of that), but it wasn't a strong taste. This recipe made fewer biscuits than the chewy white biscuit recipe.
The flavor, stand-alone, isn't the best I've made, but it felt very healthy after I ate it. The flavor was passable, though, and would probably be a lot better with butter and jam.
I'm not sure whether the whole wheat flour or the reduction of water made it so it was no longer chewy.
I should note that I used less oil to grease the pan.
Note that this and the chewy white biscuit recipe probably use more sodium than my original, as these are pretty high in sodium and the original was kind of normal there (but I think they had more flavor). I have a feeling that my original recipe may have used a 375° F. baking temperature (but I could be wrong, and I kind of like 350° F., so far, because it seems to work, and it doesn't take very long to preheat to it).
I'm pretty happy about halving the ingredients so that I can do experiments more often (and about how easy it is to do and to clean up by comparison).
The original baking powder biscuit recipe used baking powder, but for health and simplicity reasons, I switched to baking soda (which didn't work out well at first, but with some modifications, and further use, I liked it more). I was a few thousand feet higher in elevation during most of my original modifications to the original recipe.
According to my mom, the original baking powder biscuit recipe used ¼ cup of oil.
[HASH]wholewheat [HASH]biscuit [HASH]recipe
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Post by Yoris on Apr 25, 2019 18:56:21 GMT -7
So, my sister said that the original French bread recipe probably came from either the Betty Crocker Cookbook, or Breads of the World, by Mariana Honig. Apparently it didn't come from the Doubleday Cookbook. She sent me this link for the Betty Crocker recipe: www.bettycrocker.com/recipes/gold-medal-classic-french-bread/ca03182a-5970-44a3-83b5-3c719b852dacSo, the recipe at that link actually looks fairly familiar (and I'm glad it's using Gold Medal flour, since that's my favorite white flour brand). Using it as a guide, my next attempt should probably be something like this: 3 cups of white flour 1 tablespoon brown sugar (instead of white) 1 teaspoon salt 1 package of active dry yeast 1¼ cups water 2 tablespoons vegetable oil Bake on 375° F. for a half an hour or so. Optionally, do the cup of warm water separately and activate the yeast first, and let it rise as the Betty Crocker recipe instructs. So, for biscuits, I might try this: 3 cups flour A tablespoon of brown sugar or a squirt of blue agave sweetener (white sugar might work better for biscuits, but if I use baking soda I want to use brown sugar) 1 teaspoon salt 1½ teaspoons baking powder (or baking soda and potentially something mildly acidic) 1¾ cups water 2 tablespoons oil Bake on 375° F. for 25 to 30 minutes. |
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Post by Yoris on Apr 25, 2019 19:18:16 GMT -7
So, apparently those whole wheat biscuits taste a whole lot better after cooling for a few hours! :) They have more flavor. The similar white flour recipe had this quality, too, but it wasn't as large of an effect. The original recipe did not have this quality.
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